
Arguing with atheists can be a lot of fun. Not very often, of course, but on occasion it's fun to
jump into the trenches and see if the machine guns still fire. Of course, there are several kinds of atheists* one will find there.
The first kind is the fun kind in the short run. Odin in the above-mentioned thread is a particularly useful example. If you can get him to make a comprehensible post, you'll find that his "facts" are a lot like walking through a spider web with your mouth open. You get a bit of a shock and may be momentarily blinded, but as soon as you start to pull at the gossamer you'll see that it is wholly insubstantial. Odin asserted that John's story of Peter catching 153 fish was obviously copied from the mythical story of Pythagoras catching 153 fish - except that Pythagoras in his story did not himself fish, nor did those he was with have 153 - he simply guessed correctly how many they had. When pointed out that his assertion was baseless, he simply slunk away, only to appear in another thread with the same manner of (non) argument.
But Odin is neither here nor there, because while in dealing with him one can understand why cats love toys (especially the ones that squeak), even cats eventually bore of toys like that.
But there is a second kind with whom I enjoy sparring far more. They are more intelligent and better read**. Veil over at Vox's is a good example, though I think he seemed rather surprised after asking for (non-documentary) proof of a miracle - he asked specifically for a resurrection - that I responded that even if I provided it, he would not believe it.
Of course, the Christian is at a real disadvantage in such a case, because I personally do not know of any miraculous resurrections in the past, say, 1900 years, and he has already argued that documentary evidence is insufficient: no, we need a "real" modern-day resurrection. But then I realized that illustrating that the atheist would not believe one does not require a miracle; all it requires is an event that the evidence showed could be one***.
For example,
here's a resurrection, exactly what Veil asked for. Now, what is a resurrection? Well, it's when a person who was dead comes back to life. It doesn't have to be a Jesus;
the centurion's servant and the widow's son are just as miraculous and pretty similar "quickly back to life" events.
So in the linked story (there's more than I explain), the cop is dead. The machines say so, the doctors say so. The family says goodbye. 5 minutes later, the nurse notices that he has a heartbeat again, and he is alive today. We don't know how, and we certainly can't prove God is responsible, but we can show that, if He was, the atheist would not believe it.
We only have three possible explanations for dead then not-dead:
#1 He wasn't really dead.
#2 He was dead and came to life by some natural process.
#3 He was dead and came back by a supernatural process, a miracle.
To believe or assert #1 is to propose Science Fail. The best medical knowledge and the best tools we have said he was dead. All the evidence is that on the dead/not dead binary, he was dead. One could assert that the machines are not good enough or that the doctors and paramedics made a mistake - and one may be correct - but notice what is happening? The person is arguing against the available evidence, not with it. If we are going to act in an orderly and proficient scientific manner, we have to believe that when the doctors walked out of the room, they left a dead man behind.
That leaves either #2 or #3, but we have a problem: no physical evidence can help us decide between them. We have the result of an unknown process, and there is no way to tell by weighing the actual facts whether it happened by some unknown natural one or by some unknown supernatural one.
Most atheists (in fact, most people other than the man's family or maybe his church) would assert #2: we don't know what happened, but whatever happened was wholly natural. It could have happened to anyone. God need not be involved.
It's perfectly reasonable and it conforms with our lives and experiences. But I would assert that if exactly the same thing happened with a man standing over the policeman saying, "Young man, I say to thee, arise," whatever chain of arguments can get us from "unknown process" to "unknown natural process" without evidence can surely account for him. If we are going to make the mental jump that most people make, that seems most reasonable to us, then it is impossible to prove that something was a miracle. It might not be understood, it might be a heck of a coincidence, but it cannot be accepted as a miracle.
If one makes the mental jump from "unknown process" to "there must be some natural explanation" then while one is certain to see things he does not understand, he will never see a miracle. And it is not the available evidence but his philosophy that will not allow it.
* As there are the same kinds of Christians. They are like Superman and Bizarro Superman.
** and probably don't need a co-signer for a loan.
*** From this point the argument is "virtual" and one-sided as, being as how I answered it after work, he has either not been back to see it or has decided to ignore it. I suspect the former.